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Dr. Ledermann is interviewed by Dr. Brian Kaplan: BK: Hello. My name's Dr. Brian Kaplan and I'm now going to interview my teacher
and mentor, Dr. Eric Ledermann.
Dr. Ledermann, can you just tell me when you were born?
EL: 16 May 1908.
BK: Dr. Ledermann tell me, when did you first
decided to become a doctor?
EL: My father was a general
practitioner and he gave me an example of an excellent doctor, and when
I left school
my mother said, "Don't
think of being a teacher!" But
I said:” My teacher thinks I would be a good teacher as I was a good
pupil”.
But my mother said: "You look at your daddy." And I said, "You're
right." I went to Freiburg, it was my first university. You have to write
down your main subject. I wrote "Medicine". Second subject, I wrote "Philosophy".
Now that was quite difficult. I did read philosophy but there was
plenty to do with medicine of course.
BK: Was your time at school
a classical education? You were studying
Latin, Greek…
EL: Well, our school had Latin and Greek as main subjects,
English was optional. Science was done very badly.
BK: And so was
there a philosophical enquiry? I mean, in the Berlin of that era, was
philosophical enquiry something fairly cultural
at that time or was
it quite
unusual?
EL: Well, we all had to read
a certain book on physiology which was written by Professor Hoeber
and I was asked to report on
the first
chapter. The
first chapter
says: “Before you understand the functions of various organs, let's
ask one question: Is there a vital force behind all this?”
BK: A
vital force?
EL: What lies behind all these
manifestations of the functions of the heart, lungs, kidneys, etc? The
answer is a Vital
Force. So I went
to the library and
said: "May I borrow a book please on the vital force?" The librarian
said, "Here it is. It's a book by Hans Driesch, ‘The Philosophy of
Organic Life‘.
BK: When he says vital force,
that sounds to me like a homeopathic term, is it ‘Vitalism?
Is that what is meant ?
EL: Yes, Hahnemann was also convinced that
there is a vital force which accounts for the efficacy of homeopathic
treatment
BK: So how does this Vital Force manifest itself?
EL:
In a holistic way... Jan Smuts coined the term Holism
BK: That was in 1926
in his book ”Holism and Evolution”
EL: Smuts saw holism as a feature
in the world, in the universe, in the crystal, in the organised cell,
in the multi-cellular
organism. However I differ
with
Smuts here. I concur with Kant who saw wholeness
not in the universe but in the mind. It's your mind that looks upon
some phenomena as wholes. And it's
absolutely
essential not to interpret holism as something
in the
universe
because it's in the mind. This is the way we
understand living organisms.
BK: But this is saying almost that a holistic
philosophy is subjective and not objective.
EL: But what does 'subjective'
mean? Kant said that the mind’s judgement
is objective. You cannot build a philosophy
of holism without including the influence of the mind. You cannot understand
human beings without the
Idea of
wholeness.
BK: And so that was already
happening at the time you were in medical school?
EL: Yes,
holism was of great interest to philosophers and scientists
at that time.
BK: So this whole philosophy of vitalism
and holism was still around,
and very much on the way when you picked up
this
book?
EL: Well I still have
a copy .. A friend of my father
said to him, "Your
son should not read these
books, he won't be a proper doctor."
BK: What, the books on
vitalism?
EL : Yes, he was
a was a prophet.
BK: So what now? Seventy
years later you realise
he was right?
EL: No,
he was utterly wrong, a proper doctor
ought to understand
the principles which underlie medicine.
Unfortunately such
understanding is not taught to
medical students.
BK:
Okay, so what happened? This happened soon after
having entered
you medical school, Which
year ?
EL: 1928.
BK: So then, how
did you get
on with the scientific medical approach
which is
mechanistic and not holistic ?
EL: I just repeated
what was
expected of me.
BK: But you
knew that
there was another
agenda for
you?
EL: But I
knew it was
wrong and
I told my medical friends. They wouldn't
listen. "Ledermann,
we have lots
of things
to learn in medicine, we have no time for your holism."
BK:
So you learnt
to shut up about
holism?
EL:
Yes,
BK: So you
tolerated
this
but did you feel
that
treating your own
patients
the Idea of holism
will
guide you ?
EL: Yes
BK: You
thought
this all along?
EL: Yes,
and
in those
days
a holistic approach was already
practiced
as
natural therapy
in
Germany and I had heard about it before
I
went to Edinburgh in 1933.
BK:
But
let's not
jump
too far ahead… So you finished medical school
basically.
Then tell us the story that you told me some time ago. Was it in
your internship when
the Nazis came to visit the hospital ?
EL:
I
was
a
doctor in the
children's
hospital.
BK:
And
this
was
early,
what in
your
first job as a
doctor?
EL:
No,
the
first
job
was
in
Dermatology. I was
offered
a job in
the
Department of Dermatology and Venereology, they
went
together.
BK:
They
were
combined?
EL:
Yes.
It
wasn't
a
very
happy
job
because
they were prostitutes
there,
and after
two
months the chief
of
the hospital said, "Dr. Ledermann, we have
to
transfer you to the Medical Department because the professor there
has got another
vacancy that must be filled." I met the professor and he said, "Dr.
Ledermann,
I want you to resign, because I’ve promised this job to somebody
else." I said, "Sir, I haven't got anything else
,but
I
would like to be an assistant at the children's hospital." "I
have
influence.
Secretary, please write a letter, this Dr. Ledermann is an
excellent candidate
for
Professor
Finkelstein's
hospital for sick children." I
got
the
job.
It
was a marvelous job, until Hitler came. Do you know what happened
then? I've told you this before.
BK: Tell
me
though,
it's
good
to
have
this
on
record.
EL:
All
the
doctors
had
to
go
to
the
porter's
lodge and the
Nazis
were there. And on
that
night I had
accepted
an invitation
from
a great friend who had invited me for
supper.
In this tense situation I couldn't remember his telephone
number.
There was a telephone directory. I picked it
up
pushed away a small book that was
lying
on the telephone directory ,and made the call: "Fritz, I'm late,
please
understand." The Nazi officer immediately grasped my arm. "You’re
under
arrest, you touched my book. And the chief, non-Jewish, doctor said, "Leave
him
alone, he hasn't done anything, let him go." He saved my life.
This
Nazi had the power to arrest people, you could go to prison for whatever
reason. You couldn't go to court and be accused
of
having touched a man's book.
BK:
So
at
that
moment
what
happened?
You
went
home
and?
EL:
I
said
to
my
father, "I've had enough." And a friend of mine,
another
doctor, had already been in England looking for opportunities
and
he wrote and said, "Eric, if you come now, if you re-register
in Edinburgh, in one year you can be registered a medical
practitioner." I
did
that.
BK: So
when
you
left,
what
did
you
say
to
your
parents?
Did
they
encourage you
to
do this?
EL: "You've got a very wonderful job in the children's
hospital here. Are you going to give that up? Hitler won't last much longer." I
said, "I'm
going", and I'm still getting a pension from Germany
which is equivalent to that of a consultant.
BK:
So that
was the
start? Okay,
so what
did you
do, get
on a boat
or did you go by train
or what did you do?
EL:
I got
on a
train and
a boat.
BK:
Soon after
that? Weeks?
EL:
A few
weeks. And
there was
a gentleman
on on
the boat,
I thought he was
English, and I said, "Tomorrow I shall have to find a place for breakfast" and
he said, "Do you know the ABC?" : "Of course I know the
ABC. I went to a very good school in Germany." ABC was a chain
of cheap restaurants all over London. So this man
thought I was crazy. He was
talking about restaurants and I was talking about
the ABC
alphabet.
BK:
So where
did you
go? Where
was this
happening?
EL:
On a
boat, crossing
the Channel.
BK:
So you
crossed the
Channel and
you were
heading for
Scotland now,
is that what happened?
EL:
I made
my way
to Edinburgh
where my
friend helped
me to
register as a
medical student.
BK:
And what
did you
do, another
year of
study ?
EL:
The examination
was after
three months
in pathology,
followed by
pharmacology then
medical jurisprudence and
the final subjects at
the end of the year
medicine surgery
and gynaecology, I managed
them all. and I was
registered as a medical
practitioner
BK:
With the
General Medical
Council.
Interview Part 2... |
